Too funny, my interior decorator friend will love this one...
Nils
· 2 years ago
Well, I'd love to hear what he had to say. Thanks for dropping by.
Aidan L
· 2 years ago
So much thought has gone into this!!
I love the progression from a house all the way through to an interior designer; it makes sense what you're saying.
With regards to the first question, I do not think it necessarily needs to be solved but it would be interesting to solve.
Nils
· 2 years ago
Well, Aidan, to be honest, it was just a little playful toying around, really. It is interesting, though, isn't it? Of course, it all does depend on getting a lot of definitions right first, so that might make it slightly less fun to actually try and solve.
archiearchive
· 2 years ago
Nonono, Nils. The oldest profession was getting a group to agree on WHICH cave to use (Mammoth to kill, ochre to use in a ceromony). Politics is the oldest profession. Hmmm - politics, you give something to get something.
More "Hmmmmm"ing
Next question, "What is the difference between prostitution and politics?"
Nils
· 2 years ago
That is hilarious, Archie. As far as your own question is concerned, I think I'm going to let you answer that myself. Those antediluvian swamps are way to murky and dangerous to my liking.
Frits
· 2 years ago
"A profession is an activity that requires some degree of practice or training, and that results in some benefit, either personal or to a group."
I think you should redefine it. In this way, eating is a profession.
Btw, how high were you exactly? ;-)
Nils
· 2 years ago
Yeah, you're right Frits, I did take it too easy there. Um, how about adding: 'and that we really wouldn't do if it weren't for all the gadgets we could subsequently buy'? Thanks for taking the time to comment mate.
Cuppojoe
· 2 years ago
I'm going to have to point out that no "profession" was possible until Man decided to become "civilized". This grouping together must have required some sort of impetus and a centralizing force. Archiearchive is close with "politics" (and funny as well), but I have to believe that religion would have come first (read into that as you will regarding the mind of primitive man...) and, thus, I'd have to vote "shaman" as the oldest profession.
Nils
· 2 years ago
Thanks Joe. I don't know if we decided to become civilized. No ape in his right mind, if he knew what civilization stood for (such as stress, pollution, war) would decide to choose that over a carefree existence of banana picking and chasing the girl apes. You do make a seriously good point there. Shaman is definitely a good contender and I wouldn't be surprised if many an academic would agree.
Smaran
· 2 years ago
I'm going to e-mail this to my friend who's studying interior design.
Nils
· 2 years ago
Lol, it seems this is going to do the rounds then amongst interior designers. Debby Travis is going to want my hide now.
penseroso
· 2 years ago
I've been thinking about the prehistoric environment you envisioned for the birth of the first profession. I imagine there were no "professions" as such even when formal structures were being built for the first time, or when people negotiated and settled disputes for the first time, or when people, uh, sold their services for the first time. I'm no archeologist, but I wonder if it was more common for people to share a multitude of tasks, including interior decorating, and that maybe specialization came much, much later.
In the meantime, though -- LOL!
Nils
· 2 years ago
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense: early responsibilities were basic and straightforward: it would figure that these were performed by several people at once and that one individual could still master severals tasks at once.
Now that you mention it, would we actually need an archaeologist for this? How about a palaeo-anthropologist?
penseroso
· 2 years ago
Wow, speaking of professions, where do you stop being an archeologist and start being a paleo-anthropologist? And is "paleo-anthropologist" redundant?
On a lighter note, I wonder when the world's first feng shui consultant went into business.
Daniel Lestarjette
· 2 years ago
Hi Nils, I'm not sure if I've left a comment on your blog before, but I've been reading it for awhile. Seeing how you're excluding hunting/gathering and agriculture as the world's oldest profession, how about story-teller? You're sitting around the fire, there's no TV, computer, books--whadda ya do? Tell stories. This has the added advantage of reinforcing cultural and individual relationships.
Anyway, I'm doing a degree in anthropology with a special interest in prehistoric art, and I just recently finished a rather long independent study of European cave art. I think a good analogy to think of paleolithic art would be to liken it to the Internet in way. In a nutshell, as much of Europe became inaccessible due to glaciation at approximately 18,000 years ago, humans moved into the more temperate regions of France and Spain. Increased population in the area meant increased pressure and competiton for resources. Alliances and social networks emerged among groups, who used cave art to communicate needs, wants, ecological information, group affiliation, property boundaries, etc. to others within the local and regional network. Certainly, there were also metaphysical elements involved, as well. In short, art served to transmit information.
Penseroro is right on the money, in fact, in his comment. A typical band of people would have consisited of around 25 or so people, each with a vital role to play: ensuring there is enough food to maintain this small number of individuals. We see this in forager societies even today. However, they really cannot allow their populations to grow too much larger than this, because they would not be able to feed themselves. It's only with food surpluses, typically from agriculture, that we see specialization occuring. In short, a population can afford to have farmers producing the food, while others engage in other tasks. And they can also afford to have increased population. (Try Googling "human ecology" for more information--though the Wikipedia entry is not so great, IMO.)
All this aside, there is still a lot of Hmmmm-ing to be done. My only complaint: I just wish hummm-ing (anthropologically-speaking) paid better. :-/
Daniel Lestarjette
· 2 years ago
Oh, and to answer Penseroro's question, paleoanthropologists generally study human evolution from our earliest primate ancestors to the emergence of modern humans. In the UK, I believe they're called "human paleontologists." Here in the US, they're paleoanthropologists or physical anthropologists. Archaeologists, on the other hand, study the material remains of past cultures, and there can be some overlap with paleoanthropology. An archaeologist would study the earliest stone tools of Homo habilis, for example, while the paleoanthropologist would study its bones, teeth, and other physical aspects in order to determine its evolutionary relationship with other primates and hominids. Does that help?
Nils
· 2 years ago
Hello Daniel, it's always a lovely surprise to discover you have a reader somewhere who's decided to come in from the cold. When it's with a comment like yours, it's also very enlightening.
As for your suggestion, story-teller kind of bumps shaman (sorry Joe) because simple accounts of events may have preceded a more complex system of beliefs. Then again, what about language? Can you tell a story without it? Can you perform a 'religious service' without it? And what is to be considered language: are a couple of grunts and gestures sufficient?
Perhaps the answer to my exercise simply is: we have absolutely no means of solving this and we'll be hmmm-ing for quite a while still.
I love your cave art and internet analogy. It's not so far off either. Cave signage is there for grabs as much as any URL is – as opposed to later actual writings, which were only distributed among a select few. I can see the cave man laptops already, not clad with Technorati or WordPress stickers, but decorated with the words Altamira and Lascaux chiseled into their stony surfaces. Great.
I'll be checking out your blog, and judging from your tag cloud I'll be digging into your bookmarks a bit as well. Thanks for sharing this and I hope I can keep you as my reader for some time. Now I must be off to think of 'witty questions' to stir the debate some more. This was enjoyable.
Daniel Lestarjette
· 2 years ago
Thanks Nils--I have to run to catch the train, but I'll leave you with one or two other quick thoughts: what is language? vs. what does it mean to communicate?
For example, my cat (who is about 112 in human years) and I have developed a very effective system of communicating, and I always know exactly what he wants and needs, even though he does't speak English or even French.
Now, I speak French, which is obviously a language, but if I try to talk to a Parisian, who no doubt will gab at me at a mile a minute, and I don't understand a word he says, what has been communicated? Rien. Has language been an effective mode of communication? Non.
Gotta go--I'm going to be so late!!
penseroso
· 2 years ago
Hi Daniel: Yes, that helps. Thanks for the clarification!
Pops
· 2 years ago
Very Interesting!!!
What about an Entertainer?
Take into consideration not only our Human need for stress relief and passing a little time until dusk, but also preparing to meet your doom to an invading group of savages that there is no possible way to defeat.
What are you going to do? First you'll run and either keep running or hide. Then they either outrun you and catch up or discover your hiding place, then what?? Well, your only possible chance of survival is to calm the situation and what faster way is there other than through laughter? Of course in today's society you can forget it because it will most likely fail, but to a primative mind it might possibly be the hunted victim's only chance for survival.
Consider a Dog's submissive behavior towards a dominating figure, he rolls over to expose his belly to display his submission. In Human form, the equivalant would be to start cracking jokes or dancing. Considering our communication skills were most likely too limited to crack a joke, it might be somewhat safe to say that someone might attempt to put on some sort of a show to possibly calm the Aggressor(s) and hopefully delay if not eliminate the immediate peril that person was about to face.
Just more food for thought.
Nils Geylen
· 2 years ago
Great answer, thanks. It's true, trying to relieve tension or pain is definitely a basic reflex. Is it a profession? I'm not sure, but then again, I wasn't sure about the definition in the first place. Entertainer... I'd love it if that was it. Thanks for dropping in and taking the time to reply.
Miguel
· 2 years ago
To built a structure, a house, or hut. You would first learn the proper way to build. I think teaching would come first in this case.
Nils Geylen
· 2 years ago
Good one, thanks for adding that. Teaching, yes. Conveying knowledge, sharing information. It may the oldest and the most recent human drive.
All Comments
I love the progression from a house all the way through to an interior designer; it makes sense what you're saying.
With regards to the first question, I do not think it necessarily needs to be solved but it would be interesting to solve.
More "Hmmmmm"ing
Next question, "What is the difference between prostitution and politics?"
I think you should redefine it. In this way, eating is a profession.
Btw, how high were you exactly? ;-)
In the meantime, though -- LOL!
Now that you mention it, would we actually need an archaeologist for this? How about a palaeo-anthropologist?
On a lighter note, I wonder when the world's first feng shui consultant went into business.
Anyway, I'm doing a degree in anthropology with a special interest in prehistoric art, and I just recently finished a rather long independent study of European cave art. I think a good analogy to think of paleolithic art would be to liken it to the Internet in way. In a nutshell, as much of Europe became inaccessible due to glaciation at approximately 18,000 years ago, humans moved into the more temperate regions of France and Spain. Increased population in the area meant increased pressure and competiton for resources. Alliances and social networks emerged among groups, who used cave art to communicate needs, wants, ecological information, group affiliation, property boundaries, etc. to others within the local and regional network. Certainly, there were also metaphysical elements involved, as well. In short, art served to transmit information.
Penseroro is right on the money, in fact, in his comment. A typical band of people would have consisited of around 25 or so people, each with a vital role to play: ensuring there is enough food to maintain this small number of individuals. We see this in forager societies even today. However, they really cannot allow their populations to grow too much larger than this, because they would not be able to feed themselves. It's only with food surpluses, typically from agriculture, that we see specialization occuring. In short, a population can afford to have farmers producing the food, while others engage in other tasks. And they can also afford to have increased population. (Try Googling "human ecology" for more information--though the Wikipedia entry is not so great, IMO.)
All this aside, there is still a lot of Hmmmm-ing to be done. My only complaint: I just wish hummm-ing (anthropologically-speaking) paid better. :-/
As for your suggestion, story-teller kind of bumps shaman (sorry Joe) because simple accounts of events may have preceded a more complex system of beliefs. Then again, what about language? Can you tell a story without it? Can you perform a 'religious service' without it? And what is to be considered language: are a couple of grunts and gestures sufficient?
Perhaps the answer to my exercise simply is: we have absolutely no means of solving this and we'll be hmmm-ing for quite a while still.
I love your cave art and internet analogy. It's not so far off either. Cave signage is there for grabs as much as any URL is – as opposed to later actual writings, which were only distributed among a select few. I can see the cave man laptops already, not clad with Technorati or WordPress stickers, but decorated with the words Altamira and Lascaux chiseled into their stony surfaces. Great.
I'll be checking out your blog, and judging from your tag cloud I'll be digging into your bookmarks a bit as well. Thanks for sharing this and I hope I can keep you as my reader for some time. Now I must be off to think of 'witty questions' to stir the debate some more. This was enjoyable.
For example, my cat (who is about 112 in human years) and I have developed a very effective system of communicating, and I always know exactly what he wants and needs, even though he does't speak English or even French.
Now, I speak French, which is obviously a language, but if I try to talk to a Parisian, who no doubt will gab at me at a mile a minute, and I don't understand a word he says, what has been communicated? Rien. Has language been an effective mode of communication? Non.
Gotta go--I'm going to be so late!!
What about an Entertainer?
Take into consideration not only our Human need for stress relief and passing a little time until dusk, but also preparing to meet your doom to an invading group of savages that there is no possible way to defeat.
What are you going to do? First you'll run and either keep running or hide. Then they either outrun you and catch up or discover your hiding place, then what?? Well, your only possible chance of survival is to calm the situation and what faster way is there other than through laughter? Of course in today's society you can forget it because it will most likely fail, but to a primative mind it might possibly be the hunted victim's only chance for survival.
Consider a Dog's submissive behavior towards a dominating figure, he rolls over to expose his belly to display his submission. In Human form, the equivalant would be to start cracking jokes or dancing. Considering our communication skills were most likely too limited to crack a joke, it might be somewhat safe to say that someone might attempt to put on some sort of a show to possibly calm the Aggressor(s) and hopefully delay if not eliminate the immediate peril that person was about to face.
Just more food for thought.
I appreciate your comment, Miguel, thank you.